Osage Roost
General Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: longbeard48 on November 01, 2011, 01:15:47 PM
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Has anyone taken note of these idiots?
Watch this video. Takes about 6 minutes or so. This has these folks figured out to a "T."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAOrT0OcHh0&feature=socblog_ti (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAOrT0OcHh0&feature=socblog_ti)
Tom
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great post.. they are a bunch of bratts that think they are entitled to all their wants and not work for anything. It come down to their parents not bringing them up right. I wish i could post links but i'm computer stupid. But if you are interested google Lawerence Odonnel interview with Oakland protestor.. You'll like it.
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The ability to have an organized civil protest is a fundamental tenant of democracy and is what has separated American society from the oppressive regimes overseas. Like it or not, major changes in America have resulted from similar gatherings. Labor unionization, womans suffrage, and the civil rights movement to name a few.
You and I may not agree with the "Occupiers" messages, but they want to be heard and as an American you should support their right to do so. Theres nothing wrong with being a naysayer as there were those that didn't support a womans right to vote or racial integration either.
As an fyi, at the root of the Occupiers cause.... Most of the Fortune 500 companies are posting record profits and are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash right now. Several are recording income levels never seen in history... Yet we have a 10% unemployment rate and are in a "recession"? Most academic economists would agree that based on the reported revenues the "recession" is over and the Occupiers see what the companies are doing as simple greed.
The gov't bailout gave loans to the banks that were at 5% or less and yet college students getting Federal Grad school loans are paying 10%? Why is that?
So imagine your a recent college grad. You're in debt out your ears and are dying to get to work. The bills for your loans keep coming and you cant find a job. You've applied, but they arent hiring. But the companies are posting record profits.
Fact, the gap between the ultra wealthy and the middle class is widening.
Bill Whittle calls them the entitlement generation and uses the "things could be worse" argument. The occupiers have a "things could be better" mentality and I think they may have some valid points...
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The ability to have an organized civil protest is a fundamental tenant of democracy and is what has separated American society from the oppressive regimes overseas. Like it or not, major changes in America have resulted from similar gatherings. Labor unionization, womans suffrage, and the civil rights movement to name a few.
You and I may not agree with the "Occupiers" messages, but they want to be heard and as an American you should support their right to do so. Theres nothing wrong with being a naysayer as there were those that didn't support a womans right to vote or racial integration either.
As an fyi, at the root of the Occupiers cause.... Most of the Fortune 500 companies are posting record profits and are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash right now. Several are recording income levels never seen in history... Yet we have a 10% unemployment rate and are in a "recession"? Most academic economists would agree that based on the reported revenues the "recession" is over and the Occupiers see what the companies are doing as simple greed.
The gov't bailout gave loans to the banks that were at 5% or less and yet college students getting Federal Grad school loans are paying 10%? Why is that?
So imagine your a recent college grad. You're in debt out your ears and are dying to get to work. The bills for your loans keep coming and you cant find a job. You've applied, but they arent hiring. But the companies are posting record profits.
Fact, the gap between the ultra wealthy and the middle class is widening.
Bill Whittle calls them the entitlement generation and uses the "things could be worse" argument. The occupiers have a "things could be better" mentality and I think they may have some valid points...
I agree 100%! The wealthy have been B.S. ing us for a long time! I have a college degree and middle class job! I have been moving backward on wages and benefits the past several years when I should be at the top of my wage scale! The wealthy have increased by 350% since 1980 and have really benefited by the recent recession! There are a lot of people in the U.S. that are peeved at wallstreet and they are`nt all welfare recipients!
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i agree that they have the right to protest anything. But why is it called occupy wallstreet? Banks and wallstreet didn't bail themself out. Our Gov bailed them out. Why aren't they furious at the gov?? They should be in DC at the steps of the white house. Seem strange to you? Sounds like misplaced agreession OR well directed deflecton in a election yr.
They could take a page out of the Tea Parties protests. They have -0- arrests , they follow the laws and the clean up when the protest are over.OWS has had over 3000 arrests to date.
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i agree that they have the right to protest anything. But why is it called occupy wallstreet? Banks and wallstreet didn't bail themself out. Our Gov bailed them out. Why aren't they furious at the gov?? They should be in DC at the steps of the white house. Seem strange to you? Sounds like misplaced agreession OR well directed deflecton in a election yr.
They could take a page out of the Tea Parties protests. They have -0- arrests , they follow the laws and the clean up when the protest are over.OWS has had over 3000 arrests to date.
The fault for the economic collapse lies both in the hands of government and Wall St. To be sure, the gov't was at fault for pressing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to issue subprime home loans. They called it a program to realize the American dream, but it is really nothing more than a euphamism for extending loans to people who werent credit worthy(think Adjustable Rate Mortgages and Interest Only Loans). The goal was to promote home ownership, but the program went terribly awry and that's where Wall St. comes in. The Banks(Lehman Bros, AIG, etc.), didn't exercise any control of the situation and accepted income as stated and promoted home loans that were well beyond the applicants ability to pay. Banks sheltered themselves from these high risk loans by selling them off as securities. During the housing bubble all the world's developed nations invested in these securities as they were low risk and high return. Homes were selling like hotcakes and increasing in value, so even in the case of a default the bank would likely recover all of their money and then some when the foreclosed home sold. Then the housing bubble burst, and a huge amount of the world's wealth was tied up in a toxic asset. Suddenly, the invested capital of much of the world was worthless. The countries themselves had become subprime(Greece, Ireland, etc.)This triggered the global economic collapse. That's right, the U.S. was the major cause of the global economic collapse.
The govt reaction to the crisis has been swift and decisive. Within a matter of weeks the prime interest rate(the rate at which the Fed loans money to banks) was reduced to 0.1%. The goal was then and is now to increase spending and thereby stimulate the economy. It hasn't worked... Why? The reason is that these major corporations are sitting on their profits. They aren't spending a dime as they are worried about a double dip recession and their shareholders are thrilled with the huge dividends.
The gov't had a role in triggering the collapse, but they have reacted and there is little more they can do. The person who is keeping us in a recession/unemployment situation is the major corporations who are hoarding cash at the expense of the American working class. The economy cannot rebound until they start distributing their wealth in the form of wages and thus create spending.
Fast forward 3 years and you now know why the "Occupy Wall St" movement got started..
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Keep over regulation on businesses and put Obama care on the backs of businesses and you there is no reason for anyone to invest here. Would you invest your $ here right now. I think not.This administration is the most anti business we have ever had. Stimulas one didn't work asndf now they want stimulas bill #2. They keep going back to failed policies and expecting different results.
Did you see that fannie maie and freddie mac got bailed out to the tune of 150 billion $ and now are giving out bonuses.. 13 million dollars to the 2 top executives. Really?
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The problem with this "Occupy" movement is, from what I've seen, these protesters are not the kind of people that ANY company would hire if they were hiring.
Mike
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Keep over regulation on businesses and put Obama care on the backs of businesses and you there is no reason for anyone to invest here. Would you invest your $ here right now. I think not.This administration is the most anti business we have ever had. Stimulas one didn't work asndf now they want stimulas bill #2. They keep going back to failed policies and expecting different results.
Did you see that fannie maie and freddie mac got bailed out to the tune of 150 billion $ and now are giving out bonuses.. 13 million dollars to the 2 top executives. Really?
Healthcare reform is another debate alltogether.
The invest in America notion is certainly heroic from an nationalism standpoint but its also highly flawed. Capitalism works because of competition, the lowest price and best product wins. Buying American just for the sake of it in an economic context is actually moronic. Would you pay $5 a gallon for gas drilled in TX or go right next door and get $3 a gallon from Egypt? The buy American idea worked 20 years ago, but things have changed now. It's easy to say you'll pay the $5, but I'd bet in practice you'll go next door. It's been proven time and again that the economic philosophy of protectionism does not work.
The world is now a global economy and companies that do not work overseas wont be around in 20 years. A huge amount of the world's wealth(40% or more) is now in emerging markets. Many American companies probably wouldnt be around if it werent for overseas sales.(General Motors)
America still has one major advantage in the global economy and its brain power. We will never be a major manufacturing center again as Capitalism wont allow it to happen here because we've become an educated society and labor is cheaper elsewhere. We need to tap into the ideas and educated people we have at our disposal in order to take our country into the next century.
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The problem with this "Occupy" movement is, from what I've seen, these protesters are not the kind of people that ANY company would hire if they were hiring.
Mike
By that you mean college educated, fiscally responsible free thinkers? Let's not allow the few bozos that Fox News rounded up be a measure of the entire group.
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The problem with this "Occupy" movement is, from what I've seen, these protesters are not the kind of people that ANY company would hire if they were hiring.
Mike
By that you mean college educated, fiscally responsible free thinkers? Let's not allow the few bozos that Fox News rounded up be a measure of the entire group.
But, I have to take Fox News reports as my measuring tool cause it's the only news that I watch. The other news outlets only spout liberal garbage. ;D
Mike
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But, I have to take Fox News reports as my measuring tool cause it's the only news that I watch. The other news outlets only spout liberal garbage. ;D
The good news is you sound smart enough not to take all reporting at face value regardless of the station's political stance.
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Yeah, I know all those protesters are not potheads taking dumps in the park, but those have got to be the funnest one's to interview! ROTFLMBO
The right to protest is fundamentally American. Obviously, everyone will not agree on this subject or there'd be no need to "Occupy".
Mike
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You stated that why would people pay 5$ a gallon for gas that come from texas as compared 3$ gallon gas that comes from Egypt> Where do you come up with those stats. Post a link on that. One great advantage would also be no diruptions due to political and civil unrest in the middle east. You also won't have the shippiing cost from there to here. So I don't by your cheap egyption oil theory.
Drilling in this country would be a great thing for our UE workers. American drillers and american refiners.. Its a win win situation. Workers pay taxes ...
Have you seen what going on in ND right now. They have 3.5 % UE and looking for 18,000 more people to fill jobs.mmm Most of that has to do with energy. Oil is booming plus the coal industry.. Why can't we do this in the rest of our country. Because those liberal EPA a holes don';t want it.
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You stated that why would people pay 5$ a gallon for gas that come from texas as compared 3$ gallon gas that comes from Egypt> Where do you come up with those stats. Post a link on that. One great advantage would also be no diruptions due to political and civil unrest in the middle east. You also won't have the shippiing cost from there to here. So I don't by your cheap egyption oil theory.
Drilling in this country would be a great thing for our UE workers. American drillers and american refiners.. Its a win win situation. Workers pay taxes ...
Have you seen what going on in ND right now. They have 3.5 % UE and looking for 18,000 more people to fill jobs.mmm Most of that has to do with energy. Oil is booming plus the coal industry.. Why can't we do this in the rest of our country. Because those liberal EPA a holes don';t want it.
The Egypt proposal is simply hypothetical to prove a point. The point being that all things being the same, its wiser to pay less for an item than more.
Drilling in this country is great? Its certainly nowhere close to a win-win. ND is a bright spot, but I don't think the 18,000 jobs they have created will do much to correct the 14 million unemployed Americans. I'll disagree and remind you of the BP disaster only one year ago. I'll also remind you that oil is a finite resource that wont be around forever.
You should read up on the Peak Oil theory, also read up on the Standard Oil Company and its breakup many years ago. You'll learn that the oil industry is nothing more than a thinly veiled monopoly and that the cost of producing oil is getting so high that the economic/environmental ramifications are terrifying.
You bash the EPA guys; however, America is conspicuously absent from global pollution agreements. I'd argue that the EPA/U.S. isnt doing as much as we should.
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Those 18,000 jobs are Unfilled. THEY NEED PEOPLE those are in addition to the Employeed workers in the energy sector .
I'll say one thing the epa did that was good last week. They decided not to go after farmers or crating dust while tilling fields... GHEEEEZZZ.Got love those their wisdom. With these kind of crazy regulation here you wonder why we can't compete in the world arena? When this administration came into power their words were we will bankrupt the coal industry and we want gas to go to 9$ a gallon like europe. They are trying to do this via the epa.. I guess you are ok with that.?How are those 5 million green jobs doing for you? Three green energy scams in the lasrt 2wks.. CRONY CAPITOLISM
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wow---this one is getting interesting!!!
The right to demonstrate is a fundlemental right in this country----a organized demonstration is key here. Govt has the responsibility to regulate and control these gathering as to not impede or stop buisness. The recent gathering seems to be totally hindering buisnesses in the area and its time to do something about it. One buisness owner has had to lay off 20 employees --his buisness is in the heart of the demonstrations...the "event" has totally halted his traffic in his shop that he took out a loan for $4 million to enlarge. Tell me thats the goal of this event.
Our ecomomy is in shambles for many rreasons...but the heart beat of all those reasons lies with our Government--be it republican or democratic. Over regulation in every aspect of anything they can get their hands on from the EPA ,ENTITLEMENTS,to health care, to employment issues,and on and on... has crippled what makes this country the best---our capitalistic means of life.
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Those 18,000 jobs are Unfilled. THEY NEED PEOPLE those are in addition to the Employeed workers in the energy sector .
I'll say one thing the epa did that was good last week. They decided not to go after farmers or crating dust while tilling fields... GHEEEEZZZ.Got love those their wisdom. With these kind of crazy regulation here you wonder why we can't compete in the world arena? When this administration came into power their words were we will bankrupt the coal industry and we want gas to go to 9$ a gallon like europe. They are trying to do this via the epa.. I guess you are ok with that.?How are those 5 million green jobs doing for you? Three green energy scams in the lasrt 2wks.. CRONY CAPITOLISM
America does compete in the World arena and we are falling behind on both education and environmental quality when compared to other developed nations.
Governments only regulate when industry fails to do it themselves. To blame the EPA or govt is a bit short sighted.
I look at todays problems and consider how they impact tomorrow and the decades that follow. I also feel an obligation to leave my children a better place than I inherited. That being said, I believe in fiscal responsibility and not leaving my children and grandchildren to fix our mistakes. I also want them to enjoy the beautiful place our planet is, and drilling here, fracking there, and strip mining everywhere isn't going to do that.
There are hundreds of companies doing quite well by going green and there are a few that have been unscrupulous. Again, its not fair to taint the batch based on the actions of only a few.
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agreed.
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its not the green companies that are unscrupuliss. It the gov that is funneling $ to their contibutors. There in lies the problem.
You need to read the article in the huffington post today on who istaking over the ows movement. They started out saying they didn't want any backing from anyone. Keep is grass roots with no chance of $ polluting their mission. Well guess what now the unions and moveon .org people are taking it over. Got love George Sors and moveon .org. A billionaire 1% who runs a hedge fund.. Boy are these kids getting punked.
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the agreed was for JEFF
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education---now there is another fine example of what we used to have---before GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS changed everything for the few---now look at where we are ----the view is not good from way back there.
Until we overhaul our govts ACCEPTABLE responsibility to its electors---we are going to keep getting the same.
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Wiltznucs -I am not disagreeing with your points--- I fully agree with some of them, just making the point of how our elected officials in their infinate wisdom and their selfishness to justify their position---constantlly pass leglislation which impedes on our right at a competative open buisness enviorment. They are the greatest hinderence to society these days ---from choices we make as individuals to choices we have to make in buisness.
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Wiltznucs -I am not disagreeing with your points--- I fully agree with some of them, just making the point of how our elected officials in their infinate wisdom and their selfishness to justify their position---constantlly pass leglislation which impedes on our right at a competative open buisness enviorment. They are the greatest hinderence to society these days ---from choices we make as individuals to choices we have to make in buisness.
No worries, the debate has been good natured. As I see it, even if I don't get you to agree with me I'll consider it a success if I at least get someone to really think about it. My problem with society in general is that too time much time is spent on political idealism and not enough time is spent on actual thinking.
I'll have to find it for you, but I read a proposal a short time ago that might interest you. In short, the concept was 4 years in office with no second term and no lifetime benefits for elected officials. Their argument was that it weeds out career politicians and makes the legislators focus on fixing problems.
The naysayers argued that the constant starting and stopping would keep Congress from accomplishing anything. I'm not too sure thats a bad thing...
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Got love George Sors and moveon .org. A billionaire 1% who runs a hedge fund..
The guy is a pretty sound Economist and has given away $8 Billion toward philanthropic causes. He has also been completely uninvolved in the Occupy movement. He's no Saint, but I'd say the measure of his good probably exceeds his misdeeds.
As for the Huffington, I choose to ignore both the far right and the far left to equal degrees as neither of them seems grounded in reality.
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Since I started this, I will step back in here to say that I agree that the demonstrators have the right to protest what they think is wrong in this country. I ain't arguing that point, heck, my family has been fighting and dying for that right for about eight generations!
I just look "plumb stupid" to me to be out there protesting not having a job when you could be out there looking for one. No company official is going to be out there at those protests looking to hire these folks, that's for sure. The job market is what it is because we are not a socialist country. No one is handing out cushy jobs for free. Get out there and work at it and you can find a job; maybe not the job of your dreams, but very few people in those dream jobs just "stepped into 'em." They worked their way into them. No college degree comes with a guarantee of a great job, as far as I know.
Well, lunch time is over. Back to building a catch chute for my cattle.
Tom
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seems that sense our grandparents generation, that we have allowed this country to become a ENTITLEMENT society. As Tom mentioned...what ever happened to the mindset that honest(from a car salesman--haha) hard work creates success. That belief and mindset is what made this country what it was back in the day.
Now a days people feel they have a inherent right to be provided for----???/ Just like in the wild as we can all relate---there will always be the strong and the weak. The weak has the ability to survive provided the right choices and RESPONSIBILITY is taken. People who subscribe to a victim mentality(one that feels thay dont have a chance) get no sympathy from me. Anyone, I repeat anyone can create the right chances to succede, but only with dedication and hard work---just as our ancestors did!!!
Entitlements need to be very limited with clear objectives---to get folks off them. We all know there are scores of people who make a living off the government and they nevewr intend to be productive to this society.
Wiltznucs, ya nailed that comment friend----we will never gt relief from either side of the political establishment until term limits are set and the cushy benefits associated with only ONE TERM are elimanited. *bowing*
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Get out there and work at it and you can find a job; maybe not the job of your dreams, but very few people in those dream jobs just "stepped into 'em." They worked their way into them. No college degree comes with a guarantee of a great job, as far as I know.
I think this is the part I have a hard time with too. But I dont know that all of the occupiers want a "great job" so much as simply "a job".
On one hand I agree with your position, but on the other we've been told for decades that a college education assures you employability and a decent job. The harsh reality is that college degrees are becoming like high school diplomas in our country in that most people have one.
The take home message for me in this is how much value do you really place in a college education right now? Depending on your industry, could you be better off simply working your way up and saving yourself the student loan debt? Are we encouraging too many people to go to college that might not be college material? Have we devalued a college degree as a result? Is there such thing as too many educated people which creates a void of laborers? Could this void be whats caused our immigrant labor and corporate outsourcing issues?
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tough question and no real answer for that one....
I have meet a large number of Japaneese from different economic positions over many years, and I have to say the ethic of that worker is more driven than the AVERAGE worker here..from the very botton to the very top....I say that cautiouslly...but this kinda takes me back to the ENTITLEMENT SOCIETY our politicans have created over the past decades....those workers have seen it is easier to "work the system" than to work hard to progress!!!
You are right about the cost of an education these days and the fact it now comes with no guarentees ...except a loan payment that will last for years.
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Get out there and work at it and you can find a job; maybe not the job of your dreams, but very few people in those dream jobs just "stepped into 'em." They worked their way into them. No college degree comes with a guarantee of a great job, as far as I know.
Are we encouraging too many people to go to college that might not be college material? Have we devalued a college degree as a result? Is there such thing as too many educated people which creates a void of laborers? Could this void be whats caused our immigrant labor and corporate outsourcing issues?
ROTFLMBO
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tough question and no real answer for that one....
I have meet a large number of Japaneese from different economic positions over many years, and I have to say the ethic of that worker is more driven than the AVERAGE worker here..from the very botton to the very top....I say that cautiouslly...but this kinda takes me back to the ENTITLEMENT SOCIETY our politicans have created over the past decades....those workers have seen it is easier to "work the system" than to work hard to progress!!!
bingo.
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ROTFLMBO
Move along Ron, grown ups are speaking here...
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ROTFLMBO
Move along Ron, grown ups are speaking here...
sounds like you're on to something, discourage people from getting a college education. brilliant idea!
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ROTFLMBO
Move along Ron, grown ups are speaking here...
sounds like you're on to something, discourage people from getting a college education. brilliant idea!
Ron, it appears that you're illiterate. I noticed that you manipulated my statements in your quote. I suggested no such thing, rather I posed a question and like always I can count on you to launch an attack without provocation. Good to see you bud. If you feel like contributing something substantial then by all means proceed. Otherwise it appears your decision to join the discussion is disingenuous..
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ROTFLMBO
Move along Ron, grown ups are speaking here...
sounds like you're on to something, discourage people from getting a college education. brilliant idea!
Ron, it appears that you're illiterate. I noticed that you manipulated my statements in your quote. I suggested no such thing, rather I posed a question and like always I can count on you to launch an attack without provocation. Good to see you bud....
and i laughed at your question. where is this attack you speak of?
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and i laughed at your question. where is this attack you speak of?
I'm sorry, I confused your well documented lack of candor as an attack. Since you chose to issue a laugh icon and manipulate my quote instead of issuing a response as you did with Jeff you can see why I'd be confused. My apologies...
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I have meet a large number of Japaneese from different economic positions over many years, and I have to say the ethic of that worker is more driven than the AVERAGE worker here..
It's hard to compare America to Japan due to cultural norms. The job structure is different there, most employers hire for life and social norms require a high degree of employee/employer loyalty due to the lasting relationship between the worker and the employer. Literally working ones self to death is actually considered a great and honorable death in Japanese culture. I doubt we'll ever see that here...
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you are right there on hiring for life---I take notice of that point.The cultures are different as you pointed out, but it hard for me to get past the entitlement society our political machine has created here in this great country. Just as in the courts, no one takes responsibility for anything...blame is alway laid off to another party somewhere in the past. People have to be responsible for their actions ...and destiny
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People have to be responsible for their actions ...and destiny
I agree 100%... But I'll add that corporations and businesses are not exempt from responsibility. They have an ethical responsibility to the people they hire, the community they reside in, and the future of America.
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Chad....you are right there also.
Greed is a thing that has halted many a successful man in his time.
Buisnesses deffinatlly have a ethical responsibility to all they employ...and as you stated to their community as well. Most small buisness share this concern, but when a place gets publically traded, seems thats when the wolves take over the hen house so to speak ;D
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Interesting comments on both sides. But what releif do all those who have gone to work and paid off all their loans get from all this? Nothing! Also, the last time I looked, jobs are created through a demand for a product or service, not the other way around. You may think that forgiving debt is the answer, but when and where does all the forgiving stop?
Bill
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You may think that forgiving debt is the answer, but when and where does all the forgiving stop?
You're right, it does set a terrible precedent. I have student loan debt and I took it on knowingly. I made the agreement and I'm going to honor my commitment.
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Chad
Since knowing you, I would have expected you to step up to the plate. what bothers me is that there are to many who knew full will what they were getting into yet expect to be bailed out. People need to take responsibility for their actions.
Bill
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I've enjoyed your debate guy's. You all make good points. I have to agree entitlement's and undocumented worker's are killing this country. There was a time a man had pride..... Would refuse any help unless he could repay it back. I'm all about taking care of the elderly and giving a hand to those that need it till they can get back on there feet, as long a they are trying to. Not raise generations of people/families who choose to live off the system. I just wish there were a way to really be able to tell who needs help and weed out the one's that are just plum lazy. Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.
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I've enjoyed your debate guy's. You all make good points. I have to agree entitlement's and undocumented worker's are killing this country. There was a time a man had pride..... Would refuse any help unless he could repay it back. I'm all about taking care of the elderly and giving a hand to those that need it till they can get back on there feet, as long a they are trying to. Not raise generations of people/families who choose to live off the system. I just wish there were a way to really be able to tell who needs help and weed out the one's that are just plum lazy. Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.
the undocumented workers, in large part, are a result of the entitlement issue.
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Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.
I was recently part of a panel discussion on immigrant workers. Theres a lot of misconceptions about them out there particularly regarding taxes, healthcare, and crime.
The Congressional Budget Office indicates that 50-75% of undocumented workers pay taxes but do not file for returns. In addition, they have contributed $6-7 Billion toward Social Security. Of course, as undocumented workers they will never access these contributions. So in essence, they are subsidizing the programs with extra cash from which native born Americans benefit.
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm
The immigrants also curb inflation and have a small but positive net impact on our economy...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
A major research study showed that relatively little public money is spent on giving healthcare to illegals..
http://www.rand.org/news/press/2006/11/14.html
Native-born American's particularly African-Americans are 250% more likely to be incarcerated than illegal immigrants..
http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_208KBCC.pdf
The average cost of a illegal immigrant family to the U.S. is $2,700 per year... The average cost of a welfare dependent indivual is $16,800 per year. Notice the difference, a family vs. an individual.
http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/09/obama-to-spend-103-trillion-on-welfare-uncovering-the-full-cost-of-means-tested-welfare-or-aid-to-the-poor
I suggest to you, that its native born American's and not immigrants who are draining the country. The vast majority of academic economists would agree. I really don't have a stake in the matter, but as food for thought...
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Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.
I was recently part of a panel discussion on immigrant workers. Theres a lot of misconceptions about them out there particularly regarding taxes, healthcare, and crime.
The Congressional Budget Office indicates that 50-75% of undocumented workers pay taxes but do not file for returns. In addition, they have contributed $6-7 Billion toward Social Security. http://www.rand.org/news/press/2006/11/14.html
why were you part of panel discussion on immigrant workers? and are we supposed to be excited that 50% of them pay taxes? how much is being sent to mexico and not recirculated into the u.s. economy?
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Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.
I was recently part of a panel discussion on immigrant workers. Theres a lot of misconceptions about them out there particularly regarding taxes, healthcare, and crime.
The Congressional Budget Office indicates that 50-75% of undocumented workers pay taxes but do not file for returns. In addition, they have contributed $6-7 Billion toward Social Security. http://www.rand.org/news/press/2006/11/14.html
why were you part of panel discussion on immigrant workers? and are we supposed to be excited that 50% of them pay taxes? how much is being sent to mexico and not recirculated into the u.s. economy?
Being involved with academic institution in research and as part of my own collegiate studies I and many, many other local businessmen, educators, and opinion leaders get invited to observe and even participate in discussions at the local Universtity or civic events.
To your point. Its impossible to calculate how much money is going to Mexico. There is speculation, but regardless of the exact number the data shows its largely money thats been taxed already. There are certain life expenditures we all make like food, etc and any money the immigrants spend is viewed as a net positive toward the local economy.
The immigrants dont just show up and get money for free. Odds are that someone is paying them and the data indicates its probably not another illegal immigrant, its an American. Some blame has to lie at the feet of the American's who are hiring them. And going back to the idea of entitlement and welfare, it goes without saying that most immigrants are filling jobs that people dont want to do. If there were no jobs, they wouldnt be here.
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Economic and social costs of illegal immigration
The economic and social consequences of illegal immigration across the 1,940 mile long America-Mexico border are staggering.
An average of 10,000 illegal aliens cross the border every day - over 3 million per year. A third will be caught and many of them immediately will try again. About half of those remaining will become permanent U.S. residents (3,500 per day).
Currently there are an estimated 9 to 11 million illegals in the U.S., double the 1994 level. A quarter-million illegal aliens from the Middle-east currently live in the U.S, and a growing number are entering by crossing the Mexican border.
FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year." The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.8
80% of cocaine and 50% of heroin in the U.S. is smuggled across the border by Mexican nationals. Drug cartels spend a half-billion dollars per year bribing Mexico's corrupt generals and police officials, and armed confrontations between the Mexican army and U.S. Border Patrol agents are a real threat. There have been 118 documented incursions by the Mexican military over the last five years.
Illegal aliens have cost billions of taxpayer-funded dollars for medical services. Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.
Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."
"In the NAFTA era, a staggering 87 percent of Mexico's imports go to the United States, while Mexicans living in the United States send home more than $8 billion annually. Fox has said he considers his constituency to include the 22 million to 24 million Mexicans and Mexican-Americans in the United States. Mexican candidates now make campaign stops in U.S. cities like Los Angeles, Phoenix and Fresno, Calif." (Mexico's muddle, Ruben Navarrette Jr., March 26, 2003)
For more information, see The Washington Times article and series Chaos along the border, October 6, 2002, the FAIR reports Immigration and the Economy, Immigration Lowers Wages for American Workers, and the article Record amount of remittances sent from US to Mexico.
Remittances
$60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso. $10 billion dollars (as of 2003) are sent back to Mexico annually, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, reported in an Associated Press article, up $800 million from the previous year. ($9 billion dollars were previously sent back annually, according to a September 25, 2002 NPR report). That figure equals what Mexico earns annually from tourism. This is a massive transfer of wealth from America - essentially from America's displaced working poor - to Mexico.
A May 28, 2004 study by Bendixen & Associates6 found that legal and illegal immigrants send a total of $30 billion to their home countries on an annual basis. Mexico receives $13.3 billion a year. The largest amount in remittances ($9.6 billion) is sent from California, followed by New York ($3.6 billion), Texas ($3.2 billion) and Florida ($2.5 billion). Of those surveyed by the study, 24% were Latin American-born U.S. citizens, 39% were legal residents, and 32% were illegal aliens. Sixty-one per cent of those surveyed send remittances overseas at least once a month. A typical remittance is between $150 and $250. (See this state-by-state map of remittances.)
Education costs
The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually—enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.9
For more information, see CAIR's education section.
http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html
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It's not to say that illegal immigration is without its problems as is the case with many other social woes.
I simply prefer to make an intelligent decision based on real data from both sides of the issue. As such, I prefer to take my information from credible academic, govt, or peer reviewed data. Data collected from a neo-conservative anti-immigration blog really doesn't measure up.
Again, to my original point. Someone is hiring them, and if given the choice of who to deport... perhaps we'd be better off deporting the welfare recipients. ROTFLMBO
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It's not to say that illegal immigration is without its problems as is the case with many other social woes.
I simply prefer to make an intelligent decision based on real data from both sides of the issue. As such, I prefer to take my information from credible academic or peer reviewed data. Data collected from a neo-conservative anti-immigration blog really doesn't measure up.
Again, to my original point. Someone is hiring them...
so i assume you know where to find this credible information, so from what you have gathered, how much do illegal's cost the u.s. on a yearly basis?
and how much is sent back to their native country?
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so i assume you know where to find this credible information, so from what you have gathered, how much do illegal's cost the u.s. on a yearly basis?
and how much is sent back to their native country?
Its impossible to calculate how much is being sent to Mexico or elsewhere and for what cause. Is the money being sent to families of immigrant workers? Or is the money a result of the drug trade and going to cartels? They are different...right?
How much do immigrants cost the country is also a huge point of controversy because by their very nature they are "undocumented". Any article which puts an exact number on the cost has to be subject to scrutiny because we dont know how many are here and how many are working on a cash basis. This is why the Congressional Budget Office projected an estimate with a +/- 25% margin.
I gave you several links to articles which cite their information. No study is perfect, but the studies I provided are current and have a consensus backing..
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so what is your stance on illegals?
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so what is your stance on illegals?
I think America was founded by immigrants and that our melting pot of cultures and diversity is what has made this country great. I believe that immigration should fill a need, be accessible, and also be controlled. The reason illegal immigration has prospered as opposed to documented and legal forms of immigration is because the current system has managed to do none of these things. Clearly there is a need for migrant workers otherwise they wouldn't be coming, the process has failed because we cannot fulfill our needs, and it goes without saying that there is no control.
I also accept that those estimated 11-20 million that are already here are probably not going anywhere. With that, I also accept that within my lifetime the latino population will become a majority in the United States. Like it or not, our Constitutional policy is that all persons born on our soil are Americans and entitled to all the priveledges therein. Any law or policy that has a negative impact on these children is not only immoral it is also unconstitutional. I believe a large part of peoples problem with immigration and our current President is simple racism and thats a shame.
So the decision is... Do we accept the situation as it currently is and recognize it as a total failure on our governments part? Do we enact new policies knowing that we cannot even enforce the ones that are already on the books? Do we offer amnesty and make citizens of those people who have been paying in already? We've done it before and it will create some challenges. Are we as a society willing to take on a project to assimilate the latinos to American culture and our language knowing that it will probably take one or two generations to achieve?
I dont know the answer and I'm not sure there is a good one.
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so what is your stance on illegals?
I believe a large part of peoples problem with immigration and our current President is simple racism and thats a shame.
whatever credibility you had, you just lost. *poo*
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whatever credibility you had, you just lost. *poo*
ROTFLMBO ROTFLMBO ROTFLMBO
So you then suggest that a white President would recieve the same amount of scrutiny and that America is solely opposed to migrant labor because of its economic impact? You're a complete baffoon..
You're truly a comic book character, and when confronted with facts you lash into attack mode. The classic crawfish move. I'm not sure what I did to be the center of your attention for the past month Ron. I don't know you, you dont know me, and to my knowledge we dont even share a common acquaintance. Yet, you feel obliged to rain on mine and select few others parade. A simple look at your recent posts makes you very transparent.
I've got news for you, I may be outspoken but your actions make you an a$$hole. One of those rare persons who derives pleasure from messing with a complete stranger and really no different than your friend in Memphis or that other jerk in NC.
I guess I'll stick with being outspoken..
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you're a typical bleeding heart liberal and that makes you a dip$hit. i didn't realize that disagreeing with you for playing the "race card" was raining on your parade.
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you're a typical bleeding heart liberal and that makes you a dip$hit.
Attack mode again.. ROTFLMBO
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you're a typical bleeding heart liberal and that makes you a dip$hit.
Attack mode again.. ROTFLMBO
race card... ROTFLMBO
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Why don't you do me and the other members of the forum a favor. We've established that you seem to like to find me for fodder for you're attacks, a position that I have not reciprocated. Which makes it all the more baffling that you continue to do it. I've done my best to be civil in my discussions and until you arrived this topic was good natured and thought provoking. I'm sure only a select few of the other members enjoy reading the bickering and I know that a few have grown tired of your antics.
So why don't you find any of the other 9,000 topics to post on and I'll do the same?
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so we're clear on this, where did i go on attack mode? i called you out for you playing the race card, then you come back calling me a "baffoon", a "comic book character" and an "a$$hole". hmmm, sounds like you were the one in attack mode, no?
and i find it funny that you act as if frank and i are friends. we have never spoken and i was nothing more than a member of his site, just as you were once.
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so we're clear on this, where did i go on attack mode? i called you out for you playing the race card, then you come back calling me a "baffoon", a "comic book character" and an "a$$hole". hmmm, sounds like you were the one in attack mode, no?
and i find it funny that you act as if frank and i are friends. we have never spoken and i was nothing more than a member of his site, just as you were once.
Ron you don't know me, nor do you know anybody that does. Its really that simple.
Your post record for the past month prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you have singled me out for your tirades. It would appear that you have actually looked for my posts. Any lay person reading your responses would arrive at the same conclusion, and that is that you're a jerk looking to start an argument. Sorry, just calling a spade a spade.
I don't know what you think you know about me, but I do know there are a few cowardly talking heads who like to talk about me and others knowing that we wont be there to defend ourselves. To be sure, I dont care about their opinion of me and I've not spoke to or of those persons in a few years. If you have any preconcieved notions about me based on those talking heads, they are likely false.
You say you're not Frank's friend, but your actions are Frank like. And that type of behavior is something that all of the members of this forum including myself have committed to avoiding..
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you are the most sensitive person i think i have come across on any of these sites. anyone that disagrees with what you say, all of a sudden is attacking you. i don't agree with a lot of what you say and that is why i have commented on topics that you were involved in. this one in particular, you threw out the friggin' race card, which is a joke! i call you out for it, you then claim that i attacked you??? you then turn around and resort to name calling and try to play the part of the victim. i guess like your liberal beliefs, you're "entitled" to some sympathy for how you have been treated. *up*
i don't care for you, don't agree with you, so let's leave it at that.
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you are the most sensitive person i think i have come across on any of these sites. anyone that disagrees with what you say, all of a sudden is attacking you. i don't agree with a lot of what you say and that is why i have commented on topics that you were involved in. this one in particular, you threw out the friggin' race card, which is a joke! i call you out for it, you then claim that i attacked you??? you then turn around and resort to name calling and try to play the part of the victim. i guess like your liberal beliefs, you're "entitled" to some sympathy for how you have been treated. *up*
Very cute I'd expect nothing less..
As I understand it we have an agreement, and are going our seperate ways.
Good luck to you...
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you are the most sensitive person i think i have come across on any of these sites. anyone that disagrees with what you say, all of a sudden is attacking you. i don't agree with a lot of what you say and that is why i have commented on topics that you were involved in. this one in particular, you threw out the friggin' race card, which is a joke! i call you out for it, you then claim that i attacked you??? you then turn around and resort to name calling and try to play the part of the victim. i guess like your liberal beliefs, you're "entitled" to some sympathy for how you have been treated. *up*
Very cute I'd expect nothing less..
As I understand it we have an agreement, and are going our seperate ways.
*up*