Author Topic: Occupy Wall Street, etc...  (Read 2841 times)

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2011, 09:41:32 AM »
Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.

I was recently part of a panel discussion on immigrant workers.  Theres a lot of misconceptions about them out there particularly regarding taxes, healthcare, and crime.

The Congressional Budget Office indicates that 50-75% of undocumented workers pay taxes but do not file for returns.  In addition, they have contributed $6-7 Billion toward Social Security.  Of course, as undocumented workers they will never access these contributions.  So in essence, they are subsidizing the programs with extra cash from which native born Americans benefit.

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm

The immigrants also curb inflation and have a small but positive net impact on our economy...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

A major research study showed that relatively little public money is spent on giving healthcare to illegals..

http://www.rand.org/news/press/2006/11/14.html

Native-born American's particularly African-Americans are 250% more likely to be incarcerated than illegal immigrants..

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_208KBCC.pdf

The average cost of a illegal immigrant family to the U.S. is $2,700 per year...  The average cost of a welfare dependent indivual is $16,800 per year.  Notice the difference, a family vs. an individual.

http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/09/obama-to-spend-103-trillion-on-welfare-uncovering-the-full-cost-of-means-tested-welfare-or-aid-to-the-poor

I suggest to you, that its native born American's and not immigrants who are draining the country.  The vast majority of academic economists would agree.  I really don't have a stake in the matter, but as food for thought...

« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 09:47:00 AM by wiltznucs »

ronmexico

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2011, 09:55:50 AM »
Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.

I was recently part of a panel discussion on immigrant workers.  Theres a lot of misconceptions about them out there particularly regarding taxes, healthcare, and crime.

The Congressional Budget Office indicates that 50-75% of undocumented workers pay taxes but do not file for returns.  In addition, they have contributed $6-7 Billion toward Social Security.  http://www.rand.org/news/press/2006/11/14.html

why were you part of panel discussion on immigrant workers?  and are we supposed to be excited that 50% of them pay taxes?  how much is being sent to mexico and not recirculated into the u.s. economy?

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2011, 10:08:45 AM »
Please don't get me started on undocumented worker's.

I was recently part of a panel discussion on immigrant workers.  Theres a lot of misconceptions about them out there particularly regarding taxes, healthcare, and crime.

The Congressional Budget Office indicates that 50-75% of undocumented workers pay taxes but do not file for returns.  In addition, they have contributed $6-7 Billion toward Social Security.  http://www.rand.org/news/press/2006/11/14.html

why were you part of panel discussion on immigrant workers?  and are we supposed to be excited that 50% of them pay taxes?  how much is being sent to mexico and not recirculated into the u.s. economy?

Being involved with academic institution in research and as part of my own collegiate studies I and many, many other local businessmen, educators, and opinion leaders get invited to observe and even participate in discussions at the local Universtity or civic events.  

To your point.  Its impossible to calculate how much money is going to Mexico.  There is speculation, but regardless of the exact number the data shows its largely money thats been taxed already.  There are certain life expenditures we all make like food, etc and any money the immigrants spend is viewed as a net positive toward the local economy.

The immigrants dont just show up and get money for free.  Odds are that someone is paying them and the data indicates its probably not another illegal immigrant, its an American.  Some blame has to lie at the feet of the American's who are hiring them.  And going back to the idea of entitlement and welfare, it goes without saying that most immigrants are filling jobs that people dont want to do.  If there were no jobs, they wouldnt be here.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:11:02 AM by wiltznucs »

ronmexico

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2011, 10:14:56 AM »
Economic and social costs of illegal immigration
The economic and social consequences of illegal immigration across the 1,940 mile long America-Mexico border are staggering.

An average of 10,000 illegal aliens cross the border every day - over 3 million per year. A third will be caught and many of them immediately will try again. About half of those remaining will become permanent U.S. residents (3,500 per day).

Currently there are an estimated 9 to 11 million illegals in the U.S., double the 1994 level. A quarter-million illegal aliens from the Middle-east currently live in the U.S, and a growing number are entering by crossing the Mexican border.

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year." The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.8

80% of cocaine and 50% of heroin in the U.S. is smuggled across the border by Mexican nationals. Drug cartels spend a half-billion dollars per year bribing Mexico's corrupt generals and police officials, and armed confrontations between the Mexican army and U.S. Border Patrol agents are a real threat. There have been 118 documented incursions by the Mexican military over the last five years.

Illegal aliens have cost billions of taxpayer-funded dollars for medical services. Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals.

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

"In the NAFTA era, a staggering 87 percent of Mexico's imports go to the United States, while Mexicans living in the United States send home more than $8 billion annually. Fox has said he considers his constituency to include the 22 million to 24 million Mexicans and Mexican-Americans in the United States. Mexican candidates now make campaign stops in U.S. cities like Los Angeles, Phoenix and Fresno, Calif." (Mexico's muddle, Ruben Navarrette Jr., March 26, 2003)

For more information, see The Washington Times article and series Chaos along the border, October 6, 2002, the FAIR reports Immigration and the Economy, Immigration Lowers Wages for American Workers, and the article Record amount of remittances sent from US to Mexico.

Remittances
$60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso. $10 billion dollars (as of 2003) are sent back to Mexico annually, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, reported in an Associated Press article, up $800 million from the previous year. ($9 billion dollars were previously sent back annually, according to a September 25, 2002 NPR report). That figure equals what Mexico earns annually from tourism. This is a massive transfer of wealth from America - essentially from America's displaced working poor - to Mexico.

A May 28, 2004 study by Bendixen & Associates6 found that legal and illegal immigrants send a total of $30 billion to their home countries on an annual basis. Mexico receives $13.3 billion a year. The largest amount in remittances ($9.6 billion) is sent from California, followed by New York ($3.6 billion), Texas ($3.2 billion) and Florida ($2.5 billion). Of those surveyed by the study, 24% were Latin American-born U.S. citizens, 39% were legal residents, and 32% were illegal aliens. Sixty-one per cent of those surveyed send remittances overseas at least once a month. A typical remittance is between $150 and $250. (See this state-by-state map of remittances.)

Education costs
The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually—enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.9

For more information, see CAIR's education section.

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2011, 10:22:50 AM »
It's not to say that illegal immigration is without its problems as is the case with many other social woes.

I simply prefer to make an intelligent decision based on real data from both sides of the issue.  As such, I prefer to take my information from credible academic, govt, or peer reviewed data.  Data collected from a neo-conservative anti-immigration blog really doesn't measure up.

Again, to my original point.  Someone is hiring them, and if given the choice of who to deport... perhaps we'd be better off deporting the welfare recipients. ROTFLMBO
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:27:36 AM by wiltznucs »

ronmexico

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2011, 10:27:55 AM »
It's not to say that illegal immigration is without its problems as is the case with many other social woes.

I simply prefer to make an intelligent decision based on real data from both sides of the issue.  As such, I prefer to take my information from credible academic or peer reviewed data.  Data collected from a neo-conservative anti-immigration blog really doesn't measure up.

Again, to my original point.  Someone is hiring them...

so i assume you know where to find this credible information, so from what you have gathered, how much do illegal's cost the u.s. on a yearly basis?

and how  much is sent back to their native country?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:29:02 AM by ronmexico »

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2011, 10:37:21 AM »
so i assume you know where to find this credible information, so from what you have gathered, how much do illegal's cost the u.s. on a yearly basis?

and how  much is sent back to their native country?

Its impossible to calculate how much is being sent to Mexico or elsewhere and for what cause.  Is the money being sent to families of immigrant workers?  Or is the money a result of the drug trade and going to cartels?  They are different...right?  

How much do immigrants cost the country is also a huge point of controversy because by their very nature they are "undocumented".  Any article which puts an exact number on the cost has to be subject to scrutiny because we dont know how many are here and how many are working on a cash basis.  This is why the Congressional Budget Office projected an estimate with a +/- 25% margin.

I gave you several links to articles which cite their information.  No study is perfect, but the studies I provided are current and have a consensus backing..
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:39:16 AM by wiltznucs »

ronmexico

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2011, 10:48:25 AM »
so what is your stance on illegals?

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2011, 11:33:29 AM »
so what is your stance on illegals?

I think America was founded by immigrants and that our melting pot of cultures and diversity is what has made this country great.  I believe that immigration should fill a need, be accessible, and also be controlled.  The reason illegal immigration has prospered as opposed to documented and legal forms of immigration is because the current system has managed to do none of these things.  Clearly there is a need for migrant workers otherwise they wouldn't be coming, the process has failed because we cannot fulfill our needs, and it goes without saying that there is no control.

I also accept that those estimated 11-20 million that are already here are probably not going anywhere.  With that, I also accept that within my lifetime the latino population will become a majority in the United States.  Like it or not, our Constitutional policy is that all persons born on our soil are Americans and entitled to all the priveledges therein.  Any law or policy that has a negative impact on these children is not only immoral it is also unconstitutional.  I believe a large part of peoples problem with immigration and our current President is simple racism and thats a shame.

So the decision is...  Do we accept the situation as it currently is and recognize it as a total failure on our governments part?  Do we enact new policies knowing that we cannot even enforce the ones that are already on the books?  Do we offer amnesty and make citizens of those people who have been paying in already?   We've done it before and it will create some challenges.  Are we as a society willing to take on a project to assimilate the latinos to American culture and our language knowing that it will probably take one or two generations to achieve?

I dont know the answer and I'm not sure there is a good one.   


ronmexico

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2011, 11:36:09 AM »
so what is your stance on illegals?


 I believe a large part of peoples problem with immigration and our current President is simple racism and thats a shame.  


whatever credibility you had, you just lost.  *poo*

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2011, 11:56:21 AM »
whatever credibility you had, you just lost.  *poo*

 ROTFLMBO ROTFLMBO ROTFLMBO

So you then suggest that a white President would recieve the same amount of scrutiny and that America is solely opposed to migrant labor because of its economic impact?  You're a complete baffoon..  

You're truly a comic book character, and when confronted with facts you lash into attack mode.  The classic crawfish move.  I'm not sure what I did to be the center of your attention for the past month Ron.  I don't know you, you dont know me, and to my knowledge we dont even share a common acquaintance.  Yet, you feel obliged to rain on mine and select few others parade.  A simple look at your recent posts makes you very transparent.

I've got news for you, I may be outspoken but your actions make you an a$$hole.  One of those rare persons who derives pleasure from messing with a complete stranger and really no different than your friend in Memphis or that other jerk in NC.  

I guess I'll stick with being outspoken..

« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 11:57:40 AM by wiltznucs »

ronmexico

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2011, 11:59:34 AM »
you're a typical bleeding heart liberal and that makes you a dip$hit.  i didn't realize that disagreeing with you for playing the "race card" was raining on your parade.   

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2011, 12:00:46 PM »
you're a typical bleeding heart liberal and that makes you a dip$hit. 

Attack mode again.. ROTFLMBO

ronmexico

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2011, 12:02:09 PM »
you're a typical bleeding heart liberal and that makes you a dip$hit. 

Attack mode again.. ROTFLMBO

race card... ROTFLMBO

wiltznucs

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Re: Occupy Wall Street, etc...
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2011, 12:13:23 PM »
Why don't you do me and the other members of the forum a favor.  We've established that you seem to like to find me for fodder for you're attacks, a position that I have not reciprocated.  Which makes it all the more baffling that you continue to do it.  I've done my best to be civil in my discussions and until you arrived this topic was good natured and thought provoking.  I'm sure only a select few of the other members enjoy reading the bickering and I know that a few have grown tired of your antics.  

So why don't you find any of the other 9,000 topics to post on and I'll do the same?  

« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 12:14:22 PM by wiltznucs »