Osage Roost
General Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: M Sharpe on March 07, 2011, 08:06:27 AM
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You have a batch of calls in a competition, one has a third place ribbon already on it. The judges can't make up their minds between two calls for first place. So they get someone else to stop by and run the calls to break the tie. After this individual plays the calls, he makes his dicision. But, he takes it one step farther. He places the third place call second and the one that was in the run-off for first is now the third place call.
Here's the way I see it. If a group of men can't decide between two calls, maybe they don't need to be judging. Why do they have to get an outside opinion? What is someone that has been called in to break a tie doing even playing the third place call anyway? Kinda makes you wonder about the whole thing don't it?
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Wow,
Thats wrong anyway you look at it! ??? ???
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Not surprising unfortunately
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Mark, I have heard of similuar and even worse happenings at the shows during judging!
Mike
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This happened at the show in Raleigh this weekend. Needless to say the guy this happened to is PO'd.
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This happened at the show in Raleigh this weekend. Needless to say the guy this happened to is PO'd.
I bet he is. That is a big deal for those call makers. It is just not right!
Mike
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Wow,
Thats wrong anyway you look at it! ??? ???
Can we say BULL *poo* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >!!
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Wow,
Thats wrong anyway you look at it! ??? ???
Can we say BULL *poo* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >!!
Bout sums it up. ::)
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I never liked how judges are picked anyways for the call events anyways. I think they should all be certified somehow and have to go through some sort of qualification class. Or have someone like me do the judging...right Frank C? *peep* ;D
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The NWTF does the best it can. I judged a few times and took a break from it. Between the bickering of the call makers and the "qualify the judges" crowd its just not worth the headaches. Being a judge is a terrible position to be in as you cannot please everyone and you find yourself losing friends over doing what you volunteered to do.
The bottom line is this, there is not now nor will there ever be a method to judge calls which is truly quantitative. Meaning there is no standardized tool, guide, or system to judge a calls sound. In the absence of a quantitative measure the contest will always be qualitative and conducted by humans. Humans which have a different expectation, different skills, and are inherently subjective.
The NWTF contest has no real value in my opinion anyway. Theres a trend now where previous winners no longer compete and so we dont find the "best of the best" instead we really find the "best of the rest". The unfortunate truth is that to some degree the NWTF Nats has become the Special Olympics of call making. Apparently some folks want it that way too, where eventually everyone will get a ribbon..
There absolutely no sense losing sleep over the Nats or any other contest. In the words of Ecclesiastes, "its all meaningless" anyway...
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So if we have to have someone else step in and pick a winning call, how does that make all of their other decisions look? Like *poo*. It's not about pleasing the crowds. I have judged many calling contest and I'm sure I've disappointed some people. But, I made a decision and stuck with it. You ask a bunch of people to volunteer, if they don't feel comfortable, then decline. But you, never,never ask someone else who is not listed as a judge to break a tie. Period.
Since I'm not a callmaker, I could care less if they ever had another one either.
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I dont disagree with your assessment of the situation you described and something seems a bit fishy about it. To be sure, particularly in friction and trumpet calls the difference between 1st and 5th is typically splitting hairs. I recall only a handful of occasions where a consensus winner was chosen by the judges. Tie breakers and soliciting anothers opinion isnt uncommon and can actually be the most fair/objective way to make a final decision.
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What Category???
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in shock--- *wha*
how can the make up of the placed calls be jumbled when trying to determine the 1st and 2nd place calls only.
This event seems to involve me I am sad to say---I pm'd M.Sharp the minute I read his post because I had some calls in this competation. He informed me that it involved the Longbox category. I am sure he didnt mention that due to me I guess---I thank you if you not mentioning the division as to not draw out names....... but it needs to be told, even if it involves me!!!
For a tiebreaker ....it should have only been a decesion of the 1st and 2nd place call---not a change in the order the judges had already chose.
This benefitted me but I want my voice heard here.....I feel that this is totally worng if the facts as we read them in this post are correct.
Right is right man, and Russell---if the facts are right as we read them here....I am sorry this has happened man.
Russell---I am excited about my luck there, but more so than my excitement for that---I feel for you man......if this is correct----what was allowed was totally wrong !!!!!
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If the third place call was already decided, why was an outsider making the change in the order of finish???
Why did he or she even have to play the third placed call.......??
Why did the panel of judges ALLOW this person to over ride the other judges, when he/she wasn't even a judge to begin with?
3 serious questions, that need answered..... *wha*
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, somethings very very wrong with that senerio.....
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Sounds to me like the judges responsible for that catagory took off! My experience from judging in the past, is that the only calls to be played to decide first and second are the two calls in question. The third place call is just that...third!
Bill
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That is the point I was getting to. Nothing else. I have not implied one thing in this thread.
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One other thing comes to mind...and I have suggested it to the NWTF for years. Go to a half point system. Ties would be almost impossible.
Bill
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I called and spoke to the particular judge that I was told broke the tie..... left word for him and he just called me---waiting on a call from the man that actually puts the comp on.
Word I got from that judge is that the first place call had been decided on...that there was a tie for 2nd and 3rd oplace calls ...and that three judges had been brought over to break the tie(not one)----that abosultley no ribbon at that point had been given to a 3rd place call at all. There was a misunderstanding there. The three judges played the calls and made their decesion---that in no way had a tiebreaker judge been allowed to change the order of the decesions of other calls the judges had decided on.
This seemed to me really wierd and I wanted to get the story straight from someone that was there, and sense it involved a call of mine---I wanted it cleared up for me as well as Russell.
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I am the Chairman of the NCNWTF Callmakers Competition and I am curious as to where this information came from. Please check the facts before incorrect statements are made.
As stated in the previous post 1st place and 4th place calls were already decided and it was a tie for 2nd place. Three judges, not one and not an outsider broke the tie. If the callmaker in question had brought this to my attention I could have cleared this up without false inuendos being posted. I am proud to have a quality competition with quality calls and competent judges.
If there are any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
Results of the competition should all be posted by tomorrow night. Thanks, Richard
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I, for one, put absolutely 0 value on the results of a callmakers competition. Ribbons and awards don't mean squat in the turkey woods. They are a good marketing tool for guys trying to make a living selling calls, nothing more. Not trying to offend anyone, that's just how I feel.
Mike
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Another reason to stay away from certain contest! :-X :-X
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Mike,...you're right on. RELAX guys,...it's just for fun. A great way to market your products to the hunters at alot cheaper price than buying any type of advertising.....gotta check the ego's at the door in Nashville,...that goes for callers, call builders and judges.
Pat
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I see how this is going and really did not expect anything different. Heatman, why don't you google Beard Hunter Turkey Calls and give Russell a call.
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I, for one, put absolutely 0 value on the results of a callmakers competition. Ribbons and awards don't mean squat in the turkey woods. They are a good marketing tool for guys trying to make a living selling calls, nothing more. Not trying to offend anyone, that's just how I feel.
Mike
Mike,
Very good point! This is for fun for sure. I guess we can't forget that.
Gregg
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It's interesting that the bid on ebay for the third place call is higher (or at least it was the last time I checked it) than the first place call. Having played calls from both callmakers, I don't think anyone will be a loser with these calls.
Fred
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You have to remember, that the judges are all ready biased because it is their OPINION you have to satisfy. They all ready have pre-conceived ideas about what a turkey call should sound like to them. This is a purely SUBJECTIVE opinion!! In my OPINION, and you know what they say about opinions, the best sounding short and long boxes, that were there, were from guys that didn't even enter the competition. These boxes had the sound I liked, in my OPINION. Roc *up* *up*