What's the limit?

[rocfish13]

I don't know if this has been asked before, but what do y'all think about callmakers using CNC and Milling machines? Also, what about CNC machines for carving figures on calls? Is this considered hand crafted?  What about if you have someone else rough mill your boxes and you finish them?  Gary

[Lonnie Sneed Jr.]

If a turkey call sound like a turkey and spits fethers when I call on it, I don't care how it is built. I also don't care what it looks like if it has the sound of a trukey in it. There are alot of good looking calls out there that is hand crafted that sound like crap and alot that sound good (VERY GOOD). There are also some ugly calls out there that sounds like a turkey. The sound is what I want and the price of a call means nonthing if it is a good SOUNDING call.  It,s all in what you want and like. To me hand crafted or not means nonthing if the call is full of turkey.

It also takes skill to operate and run the milling machines, just like it takes skill to run a lathe or a band saw or any equipment.  

[Gitzit69]

I think it takes the custom out of "Custom Call." I have no problem with people selling calls that are CNC made as long as the buyer knows what he's getting. There's a guy (a self proclaimed callmaker)that sells box kit calls that he gets from Brookside and simply puts a finish on and screws down the lid. They sound good and he sells them at a fraction of the cost of custom calls. But most of his customers think there getting a custom call that he made, mostly because he had "custom call" laser engraved on the lid. What takes the cake with this yahoo is he entered it in a comp last year and took a ribbon away from someone else who worked hard to actually make their custom call.

Hand crafted means hand crafted, not CNC'd

[rocfish13]

I read an article from a wood working forum. The big thing now, is people using cnc machines and saying they were hand carved. They entire them into contests. They have got so good at it, that they program in small variations(so the carving won't be perfect) to make it look like it was hand carved. They get the machine to do the main carving, then add in more detail. Any thing computer controled is the problem. But, if the callmaker tells the customer the truth, it's up to the custom. I think dishonesty is the key issue, here.

[jmck]

read this and thought about staying away  , but I want to say a few things about this topic.
I feel its all in the way a callmaker represents what he is making. With technology these days, alot can be done automated and no hand ever laid on a call. I have alot of calls as I have a sickness for them and could care less how they are made as long as they sound good to me. Guess thats my take on it from a hunters side of things.
As a callmaker of nearly two decades, I have spent alot of time doing calls with forstners bits and chisels. I have found that with the aid of a mini mill, I can get the SAME result as the other and have a lot cleaner surface to begin my tuning. Many of the guys here have heard my argument in the past---we ALL USE MACHINES in some way or another in making a call.  i choose to stay with my small mill to save me some time and to keep a cleaner surface to begin tuning. We all have different approaches to get to the same place I guess. Its still a custom built call as guys that have spent time here at my shop can attest......I tune the same way I did before adapting to the mill......scrapping and sanding, chesels -scrapping and sanding to get the desired tone I like in a call. My take on a custom call is one that is tuned one at a time by the builder, not mass produced and placed into plastic and sent to the shelves to be sold without hands ever painstakingly tunning them.
Guess bottom line in my thoughts are we all use machines to get to the same place making calls....to the tuning process---there its all done the hard way.

[Silverspur]

Jeff. Your explanation is well put and well written. I am not a call maker but I do know how hard you work at your craft. IMO you make custom made calls.  Others may not agree but the tuning is hand done to the sound you like.  With that said, I appreciate your craft and the sound you created by hand. Yes, some machines are used to get you started in your process but the end result of tuning each call is done the old fashion way.  If I remember, you do not use computer operated equipment.  I am sure others may not agree and everyone one has the right to choose what they like to hear in a call.  Whether its done with machines or mass produced CNC calls.  All the videos that I seen of Neil Cost, machines did a lot of that work, one call at a time.  The debate will go on but we all have the right to choose what sounds good to each individual.  In the end, the wild turkey is the real judge he can't tell the difference.

[stevelumma]

IMO, if you build a call with a cnc, you are a computer programer and maybe a call tuner, but not a callmaker. If you need a cnc to carve figures , you are again a computer programer, with a skill in design.
  If the calls are being represented as handmade custom calls, I think people will see through it in time., and you are just a fraud.
It takes a lot of dedication and man hours to make a call that looks and sounds good. If someone feels the need to cut these corners for their own ego, well.....that's sad.

[trb136]

IMO there is nothing custom about a CNC call, or a purchased CNC box call kit...A man takes a block of wood, cuts it with a table saw, cuts his lids and bases with a bandsaw, uses a router to mortise the bases, uses a sander or shaper to make the lids, uses a drill press or mill to hewn out the call, uses a drum sander to make his inlays,lots of equipment used here...is it custom??? absolutely, and we havent even put the call together to begin tuning yet, as Steve said it has nothing to do with a computer program...lots of hard work and sweat and trial and error goes into these calls, all callmakers go about it differently in different ways, but the one thing for sure about the custom callmakers none of them sat back and hit a key on a computer to get it done...

[waterdog]

IMO there is nothing custom about a CNC call, or a purchased CNC box call kit...A man takes a block of wood, cuts it with a table saw, cuts his lids and bases with a bandsaw, uses a router to mortise the bases, uses a sander or shaper to make the lids, uses a drill press or mill to hewn out the call, uses a drum sander to make his inlays,lots of equipment used here...is it custom??? absolutely, and we havent even put the call together to begin tuning yet, as Steve said it has nothing to do with a computer program...lots of hard work and sweat and trial and error goes into these calls, all callmakers go about it differently in different ways, but the one thing for sure about the custom callmakers none of them sat back and hit a key on a computer to get it done...

Im with Tim on this! As far as tuning calls McKamey has probably forgot more than most people will ever know!

[fargobox]

As some who know me they will not be surprised in my response...my feelings are sort of split...as a CALLMAKER I do use some machines like a table saw and a drill press and a belt sander,, but I also use twice as many hand tools, so for me or just about any callmaker I know, and I know a lot of them, to say I or they do it all by hand is simply not true.  Those who build most trumpets, owl calls, tube calls, most strikers, pot calls, etc., use some form and extent of machinery.  In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter to me.  As also a hunter, I want the calls I use to have pure turkey in them, how the 'callmaker' achieves that result doesn't ruffle my feathers too much .  I am a traditionalist and frankly I truly enjoy building calls the 'hard' way as some would say, but I am not a purist and can see clear to those who choose a different path than I to build their calls.  I believe that the masses, not unlike Lonnie explains, choose a call primarilly for the sound it produces and while I take great pride, time and effort to add my wood burning, it is my sound where I focus 95% of my passion in callmaking. For me I say, so be it, it is a free enterprise of personal interest and it is still a craft for someone to construct a call, no matter what their means to have it sound like a turkey.  So much in the end is up to the individual skill who runs the call to bring in a turkey.  I am deeply proud of my approach to callmaking, it is just my approach and it's important to me.  I could go on but I don't want my reply time to run out on me.

[fklll]

Tim that was said well...

[B-Ready]

I got my start into call making with a company that was exclusively all cnc. We spent months R&Ding our own pots for the tone I was looking for in a pot call. I learned quick that a couple of thousands here and there made all the difference in the way the call sounded. That was the only goal to build a killer sounding call with the highest quality woods possible. Once we had the programs for the woods we were using and the fixture boards made we could make 25 calls pots in one run. I assure you all 25 didn't make. Some woods just didn't want to be a turkey call no matter how you made them. We never hid the fact we were using cnc machines. I don't know of a machine that you can throw a piece of wood in and poof you have a completed call. You have to have your hands on the call a lot with hand sanding, finishing and hand tuning. Making sure the fit, finish and sound was there. Were they custom.... You bet! Our own design and tone made them that way! Most of the customers we sold to really didn't care to tell you the truth how they were made, they just wanted a call they could run and kill a turkey with at a price point they could afford. I have great respect for the "Old School" call makers, let me make that clear!! IMO is make calls the way you want and let the hunter's and turkey's be the judge, it's not a ego thing at all. We live in the 21 century now were the table saw replaces the hand saws  , the belt sander's save us a lot of time and the Mill.... Well, it's just a drill press with a X&Y table on it. Every call maker I know put great pride in there work and there calls reflect that no matter how there made. I leave you with one question..... Could Ray Charles or the turkey's tell the difference??

              Peace  

[stevelumma]

B-READY,
   You bring up a number of very good points.  I work with, on a daily basis, cad cam designers that build jewelry on computers.  I know the work that goes into it, and do have an appreciation for the effort , and the pride they take in their work.
   As for myself, I cannot work a computer most of the time,much less a complex cad cam program. I can although carve wax jewelry models using knives, files, carving tools and sandpaper. The processes are similar contrasts to the topic of turkey calls.
   A hand carved wax model is a one time deal, and no two are exactly alike. Each one can take hours on top of hours to create.Each step of hand carving a model is extremely stage sensitive, meaning that if one step is done before another, the time involved is wasted, and the entire process must be repeated. In the case of jewelry, fractions of millimeters can mean the difference between execution or a toss in the trash. An extremely skilled eye , and hand are required to be successful , and in turn are individual pieces of art.
   A cad cam design model takes hours on top of hours in some cases to make as well. Not to mention skill and trial and error. In contrast to a hand carved model, if the stages on a program are not in correct order, it is a click of a button to go back and repeat the previous step. You in turn loose minutes as opposed to hours. There are a lot of built in tools to choose from on the programs to get you to the final goal in fractions of time as well. Once the program is installed into the data base, it takes a MACHINE remarkably shorter periods of time to carve or grow as many models as you can handle.
   Personally, if I am looking at a hand made piece of jewelry next to a cad cam made piece, I am going to be more impressed with the hand made piece over the the cad cam piece if the design and quality are comparable. A lot has to do with the fact that I know exactly what goes into it.
 Are they both functional....yes, but each hand made piece is a part of the artist who put the hours into its creation. The cad cam design,on the other hand,may be an extension of its creator as well, yet the tangible piece is not.
    Turkey calls in this same regard, in my opinion ,are exactly the same. When you hold a call a callmaker has created, you are holding a piece of that callmaker in your hands. When you hold a call a cad cam has milled out, you may hold its creators ideas, but you still are holding a piece of a computer.
   I think the real problem is when the two processes are represented as the same.
   

[B-Ready]

Steve,

      First and foremost, you have way more talent than the law allows   You are top shelf in everything you do and I'm am a big fan of your work. You are a gifted artist and can bring that to the table in your call making... Sadly, I can't! You also raise goods points about carving, one of a kind items. That being said, There's a big difference between fine jewelry and a turkey call. One of a kind special pieces of jewelry are bought on looks, size, and clarity. Most of the time the price of the piece commands a much higher price than normal and is money well spent to keep our women happy!. A turkey call is bought on sound, type of call and wood choices that gives a hunter the ability to go in the woods and call a turkey to the gun. Could or would the company you work for be in business without "Machines" or "Programs" ?Could the common man afford your fine items without electricity. Time is money in everything we do in business. I don't build calls for a living, just for the love and passion of this sport. Call makers take great pride in there designs and tones they get from there calls and that's what makes them "Custom" in my book, not the amount of time it takes or how it's built. It's the end result and the price point that sell's 95% of the calls on the market today. I'm not a purist , I'm a creature of work smarter than harder. Quality Material's are very expensive and being consistent with sound, fit and finish is important to all. One mistake and you have a very expensive piece of firewood. Like I said in my earlier post " We never hid the fact we were using CNC technology and most didn't care". CNC programs are used to be consisted and keeping the quality there just about every time. The amount of time building a product on or at a affordable price point. Why wouldn't you want that? It's all about the tools we have at our disposal. I think there is a lot of CNC envy in the call making world because of the cost it takes and the learning curve it takes to make it run, so it's just easier to shun the whole idea than to buy one. Table saws, Band saws, sanders and chisels are more affordable than milling machines and cnc's. There's no way to build a complete call by just " Hitting a button". There's still a lot of hand work that goes into a call even with "Machines". Good debate!!  I still think Ray Charles and the turkey's couldn't tell the difference!! JMO

[rocfish13]

I consider any call that was made using automated equipment to reproduce any part of it, isn't handmade made. It's a commercial production that anybody can do. Anybody can stick a piece of wood into a machine, put in a few variables, and press a button.(once you get it set-up) They are going to be the exact same everytime. Nothing handmade about it. Now tuning a call is totally different. So is it fair to enter a call into competition, that has been made using automated equipment? Is it fair to enter a carving that has been done with a cnc? Where do you set the limit?  I choose to do it by hand, that's where the fun, challenge and satisfaction are. Not from a machine or to see how many awards I can win, no matter how I built the call. How can you take pride in something that was built by a automated machine, any part of it. How can you tell someone you built a call, but the truth is a machine built most of the parts for you! If you're in the call busines strickly for profit, you are missing the point of woodworking and craftsmanship!  But, if you're honest and tell the customers and judges that you used an automated production machine, well let them decide. Maybe they should start separate catagories for automated callmakers.