Midwest call builders contest/ changes being made

[neal]

So...who judged the trumpets this year??

Mike

Don't remember who judged everything I know Wilhelm and myself did, don't remember who else. Theres a lot going on that day with judges judging multiple divisons so it's hard to keep track of what's what as a judge besides what you are judging. Earl Duckett would be the one who would know for sure.

I'll say this I don't think there is a perfect way to do this, just like calling competitions everyone I go to someone is complaing at the end there is no perfect but if we can make a few changes that will help lets do it.
Thanks again for the input guys I just want to say, I don't benifit in anyway it costs me money to judge extra hotel room paying extra employees at my businesses I do this because I love what you guy do and I love playing and owning your great calls. So thank you agian for the input I am gathering all the ideas and plan to have changes in place this June so everyone has enough time to know what has changed and I hope everyone can send at least one call to the competition.

Neal

[trumpetturner]

Well Neal, if you put the high score on a call, your score gets thrown out, and your opinion of that call counts for nothing.  That's one rule I have never understood.  As a trumpet maker in particular, but it goes for any style call, if a judge can play the call well and his score is the high score, his score doesn't count for anything.  That just does not make any sense.  I suggest that the total of all five judge's scores are totaled and let the chips fall where they may.

Don't average the scores.  Use the totals of all five judge's scores as the score for that call.

Danny

[neal]

Well Neal, if you put the high score on a call, your score gets thrown out, and your opinion of that call counts for nothing.  That's one rule I have never understood.  As a trumpet maker in particular, but it goes for any style call, if a judge can play the call well and his score is the high score, his score doesn't count for anything.  That just does not make any sense.  I suggest that the total of all five judge's scores are totaled and let the chips fall where they may.

Don't average the scores.  Use the totals of all five judge's scores as the score for that call.

Danny

Well Danny I agree with you and I wish they would do the same thing for calling contests as well I could've won more! LOL! But this is how it's set up in the NWTF rules. Now I am working to change some things I'm not sure I can get that changed. But like I've said I am gathering all the info and going to present it at a meeting, and we are going to work thourgh this stuff. I am one person trying to get some change will it all happen this year I doubt it but I'll keep after it to make it the best possible.

Thank you for your input!

Neal

[trumpetturner]

Neal, thanks for listening to our opinions, and especially thanks for trying to improve the process.

Danny

[yankee gobbler]

A LOT OF THE STATEMENTS BELOW ARE FOR THE NATIONALS. MAYBE SOME OF THOSE MISTAKES CAN SHOW A SUCCESSFUL CHANGE AT THE MIDWEST AND THAN......
My final year being the Chairman at both the Midwest and Nationals was the last year of counting ALL scores. Than began the throwing out the highest and lowest of each judge...in essence, you really only had 3 calls remaining in the competition. My last year when the so called scorer's that tallied the scores came to me and told me what they were doing, I told them to go to h___. they argued, lost and so began the miserable new rules.
EXAMPLE ONLY>>If you look closely at what that does and do the math, Mr. Parker will never win against the OUTSTANDING ARTIST AND carver from Wisconsin cuz if every judge or three give him (PARKER) the high score, which happened often, he can NOT win.I heard that only 2 judges judges played the trumpets at Midwest in front of the other judges. Good or bad, everyone plays a call, trumpet or other differently. I have the answer, but it will NEVER happen. That is NO calls are signed, labeled or otherwise; no call scores are thrown out; none but the judges scoring the caller plays the calls, including the chairman during judging.....YES that happens at Nationals and that same person makes sure you know how good that call really is. I had and still have many changes logged and endorsed by many competition callmakers.  Jealousy is a key component and will always be. Judges should come from each section of the . NW, South , West, Mid west NE and east. You than could eliminate many many problems of favored sounds by a certain part of the country.
I would interview the judges and if I didn't know their playing skills, I would have them play calls that they would be judging. More than one didn't qualify, unless it was a decision made by one of the NWTF wheels, and that also happens.....kinda have to let this person judge cuz he is a huge donor$$$$$ Also how many women judge?? I had them and I tellya, they did a super honest job and played calls better than many of the other judges.

If you want your competition calls signed, many of the makers are present at the shows, otherwise mail it to them for a personalizing and signature.
YES, you will always recognize some call makers calls, especially decorative and that category is out of control BIG TIME> Give me a break, a carved call is a turkey call inside some carved up display with lotsa fancy art and the call is inserted in the display??? Ya pfffffttt/. Am I upset, yes, where it was and where it's gone is sad and hurts my heart. I also believe new judges from each part of the each year. My gosh, we have thousands of great callers in the world who would be honored to be selected.

 

Rod

[C W]

Neal thank you for your time on this and for putting aside a ton of effort to help out as a judge! This goes for the all that make this contest possible. We need to keep in mind a lot of sacrifices are made by a lot of people to make this possible. These judges, and volunteers are not compensated in any way for traveling, hotel, food, or time.

I only have one thing to add about the prior comment. Shouldn't the contest be judged by a selection within it's Region?  If I'm not mistaken a National Contest and a South East Regional still exist. Wouldn't you expect in the Midwest contest that judges would be from the Midwest. I would also expect the Southeast to be judged by people from that region and Nationals to be judged by a wide variety of regions of the US. If a Northeast, Southwest, Northwest, ect was going I'd expect them to be judged by people from those areas.

Please Rod, while guys like Neal are trying to better the current contest check your bitterness at the door. You have an ax to grind, we understand, but he is just looking for some constructive ideas.  Your problems with a certain group or callmaker do nothing to better the current contest. Several times we have all heard how great the good old days of you running it were, but this is the present and bitching about how it's worse doesn't help the problem.

CW

[yankee gobbler]

 

Neal and I are very close friends. He is highly respected for what he has done and is doing. If you think I am offending  Neal, NOT!!!!

I am not bit-----, there are several ideas on the table that I posted. It can do better at National is my biggest concern. Midwest seems to only have a few growing issues and Neal is aware of those.

TLSelf has a few great options that must change also. ALL HUNTING/WORKING CALLS NEED TO BE SCORED.
I didn't run the Midwest, we had a TEAM, and Neal was an integral part of it.

What Is needed is the Midwest take ownership, make the needed changes and then the National will need to follow. Back a few years ago the Midwest was the testing ground for changes. It can be again and Neal is attempting to do it alone and he is only one person. YES, he needs your support and has mine. Many of my ptrevious comments are geared to the Nationals, having regional judges doin it instead of ......ah never mind. How many judges were from Minnesota for the Nationals? Just stirring the pot with ingredients that need to be evaluated, not pushed aside. Many need to help Neal in the Midwest. More need to also be involved in getting the Nationals to justify reasoning.

  I will continue more when I am awake again.

[longbeard48]

"Also there is a scratch box catagory it is the other catagory with push buttons, trough calls, scratch boxes etc."

Well, that is good to know, but a bit too late.  I e-mailed Mr Duckett (as per the announcement) long before the contest with a question as to what category, if any, my scratch boxes would be eligible for.  I NEVER GOT A RESPONSE. I guess my suggestion as to how to make it better next time is put someone else in charge that will answer his durned e-mails.  Thanks a lot, Mr. Duckett!
Tom

[C W]

Rod, Not sure how many judges were from MN at nationals? I think they have enough problems with their own contest finding judges, and perhaps I am naive and thought MN was the only contest with problems, but hopefully change is possible. MN might have shown some progress already. Within days of me asking a when the next board meeting was to address concerns several others spoke up and a co-chairman has been placed. We'll see how it goes.
  
I barely know Neal, although our paths cross on occasion, but what ever support he needs over there I'm more than willing to help.

Now about the AX.  I have had a few nice conversations with the WI carver you talk about, and I'm sorry but if you talk to Neal anyway, why would you air your feelings about his calls here and other sites?? Maybe I am just misreading that part.   

CW




 

[Porter]

Neal thanks for opening this up and I think you have some great ideas from some great people just voicing their concerns and some good ones...  Midwest could be a game changer on judging if some or all of these ideas are followed through. 

Removing the human element will be next to impossible, but being more open will help a lot!

Callmakers will enter more if they know it is fairly judged.  Yes I know everyone wants to be 1st, but sometimes it seems like the politics are the main concern from these guys.

I commend you for opening this up knowing you would read some of the bad items, but you can grow off knowing what is bothering some of the callmakers and make this one of the best competitions!

That's just my .02 worth

[neal]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the feedback, I'll say when I posted this to the forums I was told get ready for a firestorm. My response was bring it on, I want this to be the best possible contest and I know it can be. And the changes that I want to make are going to affect all aspects of the contest from when the calls arrive till the calls get sold.

In the end there is NO perfect way to run the contest, I can tell you I know a ton of call makers that enter every year and I'm not affaid to tell them hey I didn't think you call had it this year. Just like when I'm on stage calling and a judge tells me hey you didn't bring your A game today no big deal back to the drawing board. So guys that win alot have it figured out they bring their A game, now with any class of calls can there be an argument between 1st and 2nd or 1st and 5th, every single person has there own opppion and there may only be 4 points that seperated 1st and 5th I've seen it before, so when I see that just like in a calling compitition I know all those guys brought there A game but it's how the chips fell that day.

Judges this year got from the NWTF a $1 mini flashight/laser pointer for judging (which I about wore the batery out of with the laser pointer that weekend)LOL!. I myself personally it cost me $80 for the extra night hotel and $400 to have employees working that normally my wife and I would have covered so that cost, plus food for the one extra  day I go judge is around $500. Trust me I'm not complaining I do this every year and wouldn't trade it for anything!!! My point is I'm not the only one that sacrafices vacation days and money to be there so to have judges come that would have to fly or travel a long distance with gas at $3.50 and be a tough thing to ask of someone.

Great stuff guys I hope that we can have all changes made by the middle to the  end of June so we can get it out to all the the call makers and I will be doing my best to communicate through forums and the snail mail as to what these changes are, and to have more info for guys who have never entered in the past.

Again THANK YOU!!!!

Neal

[jmck]

alot of great idea here no doubt---
Neal I commend you for the initiative you have shown for all of us callmakers !!!
thanks