Both are out of fred on to which is out of lipper, Sackett bred bottem sides. I am personally not a wipeout fan most pups start late and have so much tree power they beat the coons to the tree, a lot!! This snow/ice is killing me this year. I started coon hunting as soon as I could walk, Almost failed every year of elementary school from staying out coon hunting. Have always hunted House bred stock in some form or the other. I love comp hunting but you are absolutley correct in ruining dogs I pull my big dog out of them after they are pushed for a couple weeks if they are not getting fur. If I am knocking 1 to 2 a week out the big dogs stay dialed in. Radar has not been pushed hard, made Nitech in 3 hunts was 16th at AO, won Tenn st march of Dime hunt last year, never lost a cast, very balanced hound. Cuts a hole in the dark gets treed, drifts a track unreal, fast enough to push coons out of Big northern corn fields. If you ever want to go you have a standing inventation, I'll hunt as long as it gets dark that day!